Transcoding on the fly

General discussion about the media server. Feature requests. Hints, tips and tricks.
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crusher88
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Transcoding on the fly

Post by crusher88 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:40 am

Hi,

I just realized after purchasing the license, that the TwonkyServer does not support transcoding of videos on the fly.
Are you serious that the server will try to transcode all of my GBs of video, and store a copy of these files on my HDD? This is not what I call "transcoding support" in a mediaserver.

I'm running the server on Ubuntu. Are there any workarounds for making the server transcode videos on the fly, rather than make a copy of all my videos?

BR,
C

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DaemonBeetle
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by DaemonBeetle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:12 am

Transcoding on the fly is non-trivial. You'd need a top specification Intel i7 system to keep up with it for HD (and even then it probably wouldn't). It is much, much, more efficient to transcode it once and then stream that repeatedly.
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crusher88
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by crusher88 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:16 pm

[quote="DaemonBeetle"]Transcoding on the fly is non-trivial. You'd need a top specification Intel i7 system to keep up with it for HD (and even then it probably wouldn't). It is much, much, more efficient to transcode it once and then stream that repeatedly.[/quote]

Transcoding on the fly works perfect running PS3Media$erver on the same computer, so I don't see how this should be a problem...

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DaemonBeetle
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by DaemonBeetle » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:42 pm

What quality of media, from what format to what format? It's trivial to get a system to apparently transcode from MP4 to MKV (say) if all it's doing is changing the container or just the audio - or the video is low quality.
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crusher88
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by crusher88 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:08 pm

Yes, sometimes remuxing and changing container is enough, and sometimes a full transcode is necessary.
My source videos are in general DV/AVI, AVCHD Lite/mpeg and x264/mpeg4. I want them transcoded on the fly to supported formats for my PS3, smartphones and tablets. I do not want to store a copy of each file for each mediaplayer.

BR,
C

crusher88
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by crusher88 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:51 pm

*Bump*

I don't think I ever got a good answer on this. This should not turn into a discussion about if my hardware can handle it or not.

According to this page, it's possible to transcode audio on the fly, so why not video on the fly?
http://www.twonkyforum.com/mediawiki/in ... ranscoding

BR,
C

Gblenn
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Gblenn » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:57 pm

Is this true, that Twonky will do a complete recoding of everything that I have in the library that is not already in the target format? If so where does it store these files, on Linux Ubuntu?
I am running a trial version for now and have observed that there is some activity (transcoding) going on even though the server reports it's "not streaming local media right now". I thought that it was ffmpeg that got stuck on the latest movie I was testing towards or something, but perhaps it's just confirmation of this behaviour...

If it is true, then I guess I might as well stop trialling this sw. :cry:
There is other sw that will convert my library for me if that is what I wanted (and I definitely do not!). The whole point of transcoding is so that I can have multiple clients being able to access all the content although their capabilities differ...

Twonky_Rick
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Twonky_Rick » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:20 pm

Although tanscoding on a NAS is non-trivial, if you have a fast computer and install FFmpeg, TwonkyServer 5.0 and later can transcode video in real-time today. Anyone who's tried this knows that setup can be a pain. That's why we're improving this in TwonkyServer 7.0. It will install all of the codecs and not require description files for some popular formats. As we get closer to release, I'd expect to see Beta builds appear here in the forum.

- Rick
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Checkout my blog: http://mostly-tech.com/

Gblenn
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Gblenn » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:11 pm

Well, perhaps things would not be such a pain if there was more documentation available...

With Transcoding having been available since rel 5.0, one would think there should be more details available on this topic, and much less of troubled people posting in the forums. Most of what I see is people ready to give up on DLNA and transcoding due to all the frustration that this is bringing.

And honestly, with all the cheap capable Media extenders popping up all the time I don't need to care about DLNA at all. They find the media, they play the media (any format and type basically), totally without a DLNA server...
BUT, with all the big manufacturers of TV's, A/V receivers etc that care only for being "DLNA Certified" and leave it at a minimum of codecs being implemented, there is actually some use for competent DLNA servers. But competent means that there is also Transcoding/remuxing... And furthermore, if I can use a control point (like in your picture on the home page, Play it. See it. Hear it. CONTROL IT), it becomes really interesting.
And that is what I want from a DLNA server, and had hoped that Twonkymedia could deliver.

But none of this actually works... And when I finally get it to work with one media type, using my TV's remote, I can't get it to work using e.g. PlugPlayer on my iPad to CONTROL the TV, still using Twonkymedia as the server...

I am starting to wonder... how much of this have you actually tested and confirmed working? Is there actually any development going on in this area? You are relying on an external "platform" for doing the actual transcoding, ffmpeg in this case. Which is fine, especially with it being so flexible and competent. However, the *.desc files that define what formats are supported and feed the parameters into ffmpeg are dated 2008 or 2009 typically. Does that mean they have been thoroughly tested and should be considered fully functional, or does it mean nobody cares any more?
The formats included (from - to formats) are the same you had in release 5.0 basically, no development there either... With MPEG2 and now MPEG4 (x.264) being main stream codecs for video and definitely what exists in TV's today, why are there so few files (.desc) related to transcoding TO those formats.
All that exists is divx - mpeg (good), flv - mpeg (never stumbled on a video that was stored in flash format), and msdvr - mpeg (good to have but not that common). And then there is the ts - mp4 file which is quite cryptic if you ask me. TS to me means Transport Stream (which is what I get from my PVR). Inside the file it sais Quicktime to h.264, but the mimetype is video/* (capability section)... Which one is it really?
And the clients.db, is that thoroughly tested and updated? The configuration for Sony Bravia TV's is not the best profile to use for a Sony Bravia TV... For some reason it works better to use "Generic media receiver"... Outdated settings perhaps?

And of course, what about handling, .ISO packaged DVD's, or .VOD files in general. Being able to play the entire Video using perhaps the .IFO file to get the right sequence of .VOD files (just like my Xtreamer does so well). Of course we have the so very common .AVI format and MKV's as well, what about transcoding there...

Perhaps with version 7 things may start to actually work, but I don't feel much comforted when there is so much not working and so much not being documented today (several releases after Transcoding is supposed to be working...).

I am sorry for sounding so negative, but there is a lot of frustration behind this. And I am not getting any comfort in reading all the frustration from other users either...
Whilst waiting for something that works, perhaps with some more documentation in this area, the community might actually get things working??

Twonky_Rick
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Twonky_Rick » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:35 pm

In terms of testing with different devices, I don't think you'll find any other company who has attended as many DLNA plugfests as we have. We are constantly finding and fixing format and device-related issues.

One problems is the number of profiles available. When you (or I) think of a file format like MPEG-4, we think of it as a single file format, but the truth is there are probably more than a hundred different profiles available for MP4 and other file formats. This makes testing a nightmare.

Even though we go through great pains to support the DLNA specs, there are still issues which cause interoperability problems. This is one of the top priorities for the DLNA organization this year. That should help, but it will take a while before manufacturerers adopt their new recommendations.

We realize there are limitations to asking users to install FFmpeg and create their own description files, that's why we're adding built-in transcoding to TS 7.0. I'm not saying we have a perfect solution today, but I don't know how anyone could say that we're not trying to improve this problem.

- Rick
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Gblenn
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Gblenn » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:38 am

[quote="TMM_Product_Manager"]In terms of testing with different devices, I don't think you'll find any other company who has attended as many DLNA plugfests as we have. We are constantly finding and fixing format and device-related issues.
- Rick[/quote]
It's of course great that you are fixing things, but the fact remains, it's not working as advertized. And in terms of formats, there is actually very little support for transcoding...

[quote="TMM_Product_Manager"]One problems is the number of profiles available. When you (or I) think of a file format like MPEG-4, we think of it as a single file format, but the truth is there are probably more than a hundred different profiles available for MP4 and other file formats. This makes testing a nightmare.
- Rick[/quote]
In terms of the "to" profile, all major TV manufacturers focus on two codecs only (MPEG2 and MPEG4) and there are really no variants there. The requirements in the "from" section are of course higher, but as I said, why are there no more .desc files supporting the transcoding TO those formats. And why is there not more documentation in this area?

[quote="TMM_Product_Manager"]Even though we go through great pains to support the DLNA specs, there are still issues which cause interoperability problems. This is one of the top priorities for the DLNA organization this year. That should help, but it will take a while before manufacturerers adopt their new recommendations. - Rick[/quote]
Are you saying that I should forget about DLNA for a couple of years, and then buy a new TV etc. when things actually or hopefully start to work as advertized (and DLNA is truly a standard)??
I hope that is not the case, in fact I strongly believe that IF the server can transcode to the format that the receiver requires, it WILL work!
I have tested several other servers, and so far at least one of them (Wild Media Server) actually worked with all formats that I tried towards my Sony TV. BUT I don't like their licensing model so I'm hoping to find something else that could do the job. With Twonkymedia I have come the closest to getting it to work, but I am still not there. I think all I need are the right settings files for ffmpeg to transcode (the .conf files), but with No documentation and no help it will not happen... Not for me at least...

[quote="TMM_Product_Manager"]We realize there are limitations to asking users to install FFmpeg and create their own description files, that's why we're adding built-in transcoding to TS 7.0. I'm not saying we have a perfect solution today, but I don't know how anyone could say that we're not trying to improve this problem.
- Rick[/quote]
If you can actually get things to work, out of the box, it would be truly great!! And your product would definitely rise to be above everything else. Except perhaps WMP12 which I read in many forums is actually transcoding just about anything you throw at it, but I run Linux on my server so WMP is not for me.
BUT since things don't work today, I can't really see why it would become any better with an integrated solution.

Twonky_Rick
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Twonky_Rick » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:42 pm

Please try TS 7.0 after it's released and let me know what you think.

- Rick
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Gblenn
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Gblenn » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:30 pm

[quote="TMM_Product_Manager"]Please try TS 7.0 after it's released and let me know what you think.
- Rick[/quote]
A simple answer to a complex question, but I am in of course in a mode where seeing is believing... So when will that happen then?? I don't mind running on a beta platform if it does what you say it will...

But while myself and others are waiting for that release, how about putting up som more documentation or actually getting specific about what we should do to make things work already today... TMS is said to do transcoding, but I am not about to buy the product until it actually works all the time (or close to at least)...

As long as we talk TV sets, it's simple enough in terms of what should be transcoded TO : Mpeg2 and Mpeg4 as used in any and all TV sets today.
The major "formats" on the FROM side are quite well known, you have them already in the .conf files, (but quite mixed up between to and from). You have the major ones being: AVI and MKV containers, DivX/Xvid, DVD (ISO, VOB), DVR-MS, MOV and TS.
I am getting my VOB files to play, by selecting the right one (would like for TMS to be smarter about this of course, like a media extender). I am getting my MKV contained Mpeg4 files to play, thanks to the forum. I am not getting DVR-MS files to even show up. I am not getting AVI files to show up either. And my TS files I am not sure of...
A good starting point would be to provide suggestions for the .conf-files that are missing in this context.

Furthermore, I don't even know how to change the settings in TMS to run "on the fly" transcoding instead of background transcoding as you say it can. And what storage space is required for background transcoding, and where do the files end up (and can that be changed) ??

Twonky_Rick
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Twonky_Rick » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:05 am

If we had documentation about this, we would put it here. I think you will see our support for transcoding improve greatly after TS 7.0 ships -- at least for the officially supported formats.

For me it was easier to convert all of my video files to MPEG-2 and that seems to solve most of my problems. Now all of my videos, play on my PS3, Samsung TV and WD TV Live. I also have converted some videos to WMV, so they play on my Xbox 360. Although all DLNA-certified devices play MPEG-2, some devices like Sony Blu-ray players can't play 1920x1080 MPEG-2s.

- Rick
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Gblenn
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Re: Transcoding on the fly

Post by Gblenn » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:04 pm

TMM_Product_Manager wrote:If we had documentation about this, we would put it here. I think you will see our support for transcoding improve greatly after TS 7.0 ships -- at least for the officially supported formats.

For me it was easier to convert all of my video files to MPEG-2 and that seems to solve most of my problems. Now all of my videos, play on my PS3, Samsung TV and WD TV Live. I also have converted some videos to WMV, so they play on my Xbox 360. Although all DLNA-certified devices play MPEG-2, some devices like Sony Blu-ray players can't play 1920x1080 MPEG-2s.
- Rick
Well that is the point isn't it, that no one is producing the documentation...
But it bodes well that you have confidence in the future product. However, the fact that you as a product manager don't use Transcoding tells me that it is probably not working. And with no more information I have given up on this path and started to look elsewhere, see below.
By the way, converting all my media library is just not going to happen, and I don't think that is what anyone else wants to do either. And I can't really see how that solution can be your suggested path either! Any cheap media extender will just blow you out of the water then...

BUT, I guess it is a moot point anyway. Today I discovered another product that actually delivers on the promise... I tested Mezzmo, which turns out to work perfectly well with my Sony KDL-46HX803, directly out of the box at that. I have so far tested, AVI, MKV, TS, VOD, DVR-MS with AVC and MPEG2 streams working perfectly well, with Transcoding happening of course... Some continued testing with further formats will follow but there is no question in my mind that transcoding does work, when done right...

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